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Rudas Starblaze
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PostSubject: The philosophy of Love   The philosophy of Love I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 17, 2009 6:45 am

this is the topic i reminded myself about the other day on here. seems everyone has their own comments about "love", but does anyone actually have an answer to that old question... "what is love?"

we all know theres many variations of love. from parents to kids, from family to friends, and pets to objects, to the biggest question of all... lovers (grant it, "lovers" can also mean a great many different things to different people.)

FYI: lets keep in mind there is a VERY big difference between love and lust. and unfortunatly, most people cant tell the difference which is what causes the majority of relationship problems in the romantic sense. (unless the couple are openly swingers which is a whole different ball game and i honestly consider that type of love to be more along the lines of "family love" and not love souly towards a significant other.)

anyway, i have compiled a list of definitions, attributes, actions, etc etc in my head about this topic over the last several years. a list ranging from flirting to respect and all the way up to jealousy and how they all play an important role in "love". and the more i think about it all, the more ive came to realize how little people actually love. especially in regards to significant others. (btw, im not gonna cover everything in this post cause it will take forever. lol)

in fact. i am going to start off with "flirting" which will also involve respect. honestly, flirting with ones own SO is perfectly acceptable and being single and flirting with other singles is perfectly acceptable. most people think flirting is healthy. some even say if you have an SO and are flirting with other people that its healthy. but has anyone ever looked up the word flirt to find out what it really means?

*this taken directly from Merrian-Webster's online dictionary*

flirt:

Quote :
1 : to move erratically : flit
2 a : to behave amorously without serious intent b : to show superficial or casual interest or liking ; also : experiment
3 : to come close to reaching or experiencing something —used with with

i intentionally bolded out the word "amorously" in order to follow up and shed a little more light to the so called healthy flirting people speak of...

amorously:

Quote :
1 : strongly moved by love and especially sexual love
2 : being in love : enamored —usually used with of
3 a : indicative of love b : of or relating to love

now heres the big question. if flirting is "healthy" even if a person is already in a relationship as so many people try to say, and given the actual definitions of the word flirt.... how is it showing respect to ones SO if youre acting towards others in the same way you do towards your significant other?? food for thought. and which leads me to the jealousy segment.

it seems like everyone says something along the lines of "youre just jealous" which is usually followed by the "you're so immature" remarks. and again, has anyone looked up the word "jealous"?

jealous:

Quote :
1 a : intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness
2 : hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage
3 : vigilant in guarding a possession

given the defintion, jealously is perfectly natural and shows respect towards ones SO and their relationship. especially if one actually "loves" the person their with. hell, it should be taken more as flattery than anything, knowing that ones SO is jealous. of course, i am by no means saying a person should push their luck by continuing to make their SO jealous. but i honestly believe jeaoulsy is not immature and its actually MORE healthy to a relationship (of course, given its a monogomous relationship and not a swinging type relationship or polyamorous relationship if you will.)

anyway, if you actually read all this so far... what are you thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: The philosophy of Love   The philosophy of Love I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 22, 2009 1:01 pm

I get brownie points. I read the entire post!
Flirting. I do it. I'm good at it. I flirt with younger women , because it's such an ego boost when I get a positive response. Has nothing to do with my spouse, and everything to do with my own insecurities.

How's that for brutal honesty?

I don't get jealous of my spouse, because one thing I am secure about is our marriage. She won't cheat on me.
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PostSubject: Re: The philosophy of Love   The philosophy of Love I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 22, 2009 5:23 pm

ive been cheated on by all but maybe 2 people... went through a nasty divorce with one of em and lost pretty much everything so im rather bitter.
ironically, every former SO thats cheated on me started out as her and someone else just flirting. i kinda find flirting to be more dangerous than healthy.
so me and trusting people doesnt go very far...

i mean, its one thing to tell someone that theyre beautiful or whatever, but as for straight up flirting (well, my kinda flirting like i do with an SO) is tabo towards others in my book. mostly cause it takes me forever to trust someone and i expect the same loyalty i give to be given back. if that makes any sense?

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PostSubject: Re: The philosophy of Love   The philosophy of Love I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 22, 2009 7:25 pm

Makes very good sense.
And made me think about my own habit of flirting... Damn you Rudas! You've got me thinking again!

So anyway, trust. Part of love. Or goes so closely with it doesn't matter.
I know a lot of people. I trust very few. I don't even like most people, just tolerate them.

The thing is, if I trust someone, it's not partially. Need to borrow my van? Need a place to sleep? If I trust you, mi casa es su casa. (Spanish "my house is your house")

[end ramble]
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PostSubject: Re: The philosophy of Love   The philosophy of Love I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 01, 2009 7:46 am

Rudas Starblaze wrote:


*this taken directly from Merrian-Webster's online dictionary*

flirt:

Quote :
1 : to move erratically : flit
2 a : to behave amorously without serious intent b : to show superficial or casual interest or liking ; also : experiment
3 : to come close to reaching or experiencing something —used with with

i intentionally bolded out the word "amorously" in order to follow up and shed a little more light to the so called healthy flirting people speak of...

amorously:

Quote :
1 : strongly moved by love and especially sexual love
2 : being in love : enamored —usually used with of
3 a : indicative of love b : of or relating to love

now heres the big question. if flirting is "healthy" even if a person is already in a relationship as so many people try to say, and given the actual definitions of the word flirt.... how is it showing respect to ones SO if youre acting towards others in the same way you do towards your significant other?? food for thought. and which leads me to the jealousy segment.

it seems like everyone says something along the lines of "youre just jealous" which is usually followed by the "you're so immature" remarks. and again, has anyone looked up the word "jealous"?

jealous:

Quote :
1 a : intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness
2 : hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage
3 : vigilant in guarding a possession

given the defintion, jealously is perfectly natural and shows respect towards ones SO and their relationship. especially if one actually "loves" the person their with. hell, it should be taken more as flattery than anything, knowing that ones SO is jealous. of course, i am by no means saying a person should push their luck by continuing to make their SO jealous. but i honestly believe jeaoulsy is not immature and its actually MORE healthy to a relationship (of course, given its a monogomous relationship and not a swinging type relationship or polyamorous relationship if you will.)

anyway, if you actually read all this so far... what are you thoughts?
Sorry Rudy, I have to disagree a bit with your overall conclusions.
I do flirt and I pretty much agree with the dictionary quotation you gave of what flirting is. However, I disagree with where you put the emphasis. You bolded the word amorously; I would have bolded the phrase "without serious intent".

You then spoke about respect, but I think you are looking at it the wrong way round. If I am in a relationship but I still flirt playfully with other people this does not disrespect my partner, quite the reverse. It is showing that while I am not shy of my sexuality, it is my partner that holds the keys. It would be disrespectful of my partner to assume that I would betray our trust just because I like being openly sexy from time to time.
A second important point is that flirting is not always as 'sexual' or 'amorous' as a jealous partner perceives it. Through the green eyes of jealousy just being friendly can appear to be much more amorous than it actually is.

I don't agree that jealousy shows respect to your partner. Not at all. Jealousy only shows lack of trust, lack of respect, and fear on the part of the person experiencing it.

Now here is where I think some people go wrong. Trust is the most important thing in any relationship, but trust depends on a mutual understanding of what the relationship is about and where the boundaries are. Those boundaries should not be assumed they have to be discussed in detail. Some people are quite happy and comfortable in open relationships, some are not. Everybody has different ideas about what they expect and don't expect from a relationship and where the boundaries should be. But often, because people fancy each other and generally get along well, they assume they are on the same page in terms of the boundaries of their relationship without ever discussing the nitty gritty of it. That is where jealousy and potential heartbreak creep in to a relationship.
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PostSubject: Re: The philosophy of Love   The philosophy of Love I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 01, 2009 8:17 pm

cassie wrote:

Sorry Rudy, I have to disagree a bit with your overall conclusions.
I do flirt and I pretty much agree with the dictionary quotation you gave of what flirting is. However, I disagree with where you put the emphasis. You bolded the word amorously; I would have bolded the phrase "without serious intent".

but given the definition of amorously in the context of flirt follwed by "without serious intent".... means its a pointless activity really. what would be the point in flirting in the first place if there wasnt some intent? (especially if one is flirting outside of a monogomous relationship) personally, i think having the word "amorously" and the phrase "without serious intent" is a contracition in terms of the word "flirt". not to mention, if you pick apart the phrase "without serious intent", still means there IS intent due to its wording.

cassie wrote:

You then spoke about respect, but I think you are looking at it the wrong way round. If I am in a relationship but I still flirt playfully with other people this does not disrespect my partner, quite the reverse. It is showing that while I am not shy of my sexuality, it is my partner that holds the keys. It would be disrespectful of my partner to assume that I would betray our trust just because I like being openly sexy from time to time.
A second important point is that flirting is not always as 'sexual' or 'amorous' as a jealous partner perceives it. Through the green eyes of jealousy just being friendly can appear to be much more amorous than it actually is.

I don't agree that jealousy shows respect to your partner. Not at all. Jealousy only shows lack of trust, lack of respect, and fear on the part of the person experiencing it.

the thing with respect though, is that its a personal opinion for each individual. not everyone has the same ideas of what respect is. even in relationships. ill have to use ex1 as an example again. she was the flirtacious bubbly type. of course, when we first got together she wouldnt flirt with anyone as i didnt (and never did through out our marriage). as time went on, she went back to her old ways which i found to be disrespectful. valentines day of '04 was when i got the first hint she was having an affair as she wanted us to go see her "friend" play in his band. as soon as we got there, i didnt even exist to her. she was "flirting" with a few guys and obviously very much with her "friend". she was treating him the same way she used to treat me. that went beyond disrespectful IMO. hell, 1/2 the people there had no idea she was even married! i coulda left and she woulda never known. anyway, after an hour of standing there against a wall watching her all over her "friend" i told her it was time to go and that this is rediculas. but hey, a couple weeks later i found out what was really going when i caught em together at our house. and all that started out (as i found out later) as "flirting" several months prior. so who was being disrespectful me or her? which also leads back to "without serious intent". just because it may start out as not serious, doesnt mean it ends not being serious. and as i stated with SC earlier, all but maybe 2 relationships ive been in ended the same way. so im basing my beliefs off of personal experience with an 80+% accuracy rate.

cassie wrote:

Now here is where I think some people go wrong. Trust is the most important thing in any relationship, but trust depends on a mutual understanding of what the relationship is about and where the boundaries are. Those boundaries should not be assumed they have to be discussed in detail. Some people are quite happy and comfortable in open relationships, some are not. Everybody has different ideas about what they expect and don't expect from a relationship and where the boundaries should be. But often, because people fancy each other and generally get along well, they assume they are on the same page in terms of the boundaries of their relationship without ever discussing the nitty gritty of it. That is where jealousy and potential heartbreak creep in to a relationship.

exactly. Thumbs Up

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PostSubject: Re: The philosophy of Love   The philosophy of Love I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 05, 2009 4:50 pm

Ok, I read through the entire post so yay for me!

I am an obvious failure at marriage and keeping a relationship. Why? Well, let's break it down in brutal honesty so people can see where the mistakes lie on my part and the others part.

My first serious relationship I fell head over heels in love with my daughter's father. I wouldn't look at another man, flirt with another man, or think of another man because I loved him so much. (I was 21 at the time) To me it was cut and dry. I fell in love with him, he I thought was in love with me and just a few weeks into the relationship we were talking marriage. He put his class ring on my finger and said when he could afford to he would buy me an engagement ring. Well, about this time girls started to come to our door and ask for him. Of course I was sure they were just friends. At least that's what I thought until one night when he came home with a hickey on his neck. Of course I asked and he denied. I blew it off until a few nights later he goes to work and leaves his cell phone home to charge. It rings and I answer. It's a girl asking for my "fiance" and wanting to know if he was home. She came to the apartment and was looking for him. After that I confronted him one night and he said he wanted to break up with me because he had met someone else. He asked for his ring back and then next night the other girl was wearing it. About that time I found out I was pregnant and I told him. He gets in trouble with the law, goes to jail for six months, says he wants me back and wants to marry me. I was gullible enough to take him back because I loved him. I stayed with him through the entire 6 months he was in jail and the day he got out, he fucking dumped me. I was 7 months pregnant. Then he went and started rumors around town saying that I cheated on him with an african-american man and that my baby was bi-racial. A month and a half later I go in to the hospital to have the baby and he shows up the following day to see her. His mom looked at her granddaughter and said that she looked nothing like her son. So he goes on to deny her, still wanted to sleep with me, and was also dating a then 18 year old virgin. I was naive, jealous, trusting, and a royal scathing bitch after that. You can definitely see the failure in that relationship. I'll break down the two marriages later.
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PostSubject: Re: The philosophy of Love   The philosophy of Love I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 06, 2009 7:41 am

Rudas Starblaze wrote:

but given the definition of amorously in the context of flirt follwed by "without serious intent".... means its a pointless activity really. what would be the point in flirting in the first place if there wasnt some intent? (especially if one is flirting outside of a monogomous relationship) personally, i think having the word "amorously" and the phrase "without serious intent" is a contracition in terms of the word "flirt". not to mention, if you pick apart the phrase "without serious intent", still means there IS intent due to its wording.
Maybe... If we take that dictionary definition as being written in stone and having some kind of god-like authority it could seem like there is a contradiction within it. I think the word amorously is probably the wrong one in a modern context and could better be replaced with sexually.
Now, at first sexually might seem stronger than amorously, but in fact has a completely different meaning which does not imply any form of intent.

To me being flirty is very similar to being "charming". It means using the most attractive elements of your persona and personality to make friends and influence people. Sexuality is just one element of it, no more important than a sense of humor, good dress sense or general intelligence.

Now the thing is, do people consider it acceptable to display the sexual or sexy part of our character? And how should such a display be interpreted?

I would argue that being a bit sexy or flirty in the way a person behaves is no different than dressing well or wearing make-up; sure there is always a sexual element in those things but in the twenty-first century western world we are lead to believe we don't have to be ashamed of our sexuality. Thank the Gods!
There are of course still some communities and religions which do not think such things are acceptable. Tha Amish for example place emphasis on being "plain" and modest in the way people behave or dress, some Moslems insist that women be covered from head to toe... While I accept those beliefs within their own contexts, they are not my beliefs.
I am very happy to live in a mainly secular society in which we all have the right to express ourselves as we wish. For women in particular, those rights have been hard fought for. I am also happy that as a Pagan there is no requirement for me to feel ashamed of my sexuality or to hide that aspect of myself behind all kinds of barriers.

Should I stop wearing make up which might emphasize my sexual attractiveness? Should I dress down and dowdy in fear or arousing others? No? Why then should I adjust my behavior because other people may interpret it in the wrong way?

It is my responsibility not to knowingly or deliberately lead people to expect something they are not going to get and to that purpose i am quite capable of telling people in plain and simple English, where my boundaries are. But I think that most of the people who know me would be quite sad if I stopped being flirty, it is a part of who I am.

Lying, deceiving and misleading people is wrong. Expressing the fullness of your personality is not.
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PostSubject: Re: The philosophy of Love   The philosophy of Love I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 09, 2009 4:43 am

cassie wrote:

Maybe... If we take that dictionary definition as being written in stone and having some kind of god-like authority it could seem like there is a contradiction within it. I think the word amorously is probably the wrong one in a modern context and could better be replaced with sexually.
Now, at first sexually might seem stronger than amorously, but in fact has a completely different meaning which does not imply any form of intent.

ah, but any action... such as "flirt" or acting/speaking sexually towards another, as you are defining it... has an intent.... there is no way around it.......... if one has no intent do "A", then why would they even bother?" thats like talking the talk but not walking the walk.

cassie wrote:

To me being flirty is very similar to being "charming". It means using the most attractive elements of your persona and personality to make friends and influence people. Sexuality is just one element of it, no more important than a sense of humor, good dress sense or general intelligence.

actually, here is the definition according to merriam-webster. as are the ones before...

Main Entry: charm·ing
Pronunciation: \ˈchär-miŋ\
Function: adjective
Date: 1634
: extremely pleasing or delightful

there is NOTHING in the definition that remotely relates to flirt or sexual. i can find a table at a furniture store "charming" but it has nothing to due with its actions... as flirting has to do. which brings me to the the next part which you talked about...

cassie wrote:

Now the thing is, do people consider it acceptable to display the sexual or sexy part of our character? And how should such a display be interpreted?

I would argue that being a bit sexy or flirty in the way a person behaves is no different than dressing well or wearing make-up; sure there is always a sexual element in those things but in the twenty-first century western world we are lead to believe we don't have to be ashamed of our sexuality. Thank the Gods!
There are of course still some communities and religions which do not think such things are acceptable. Tha Amish for example place emphasis on being "plain" and modest in the way people behave or dress, some Moslems insist that women be covered from head to toe... While I accept those beliefs within their own contexts, they are not my beliefs.
I am very happy to live in a mainly secular society in which we all have the right to express ourselves as we wish. For women in particular, those rights have been hard fought for. I am also happy that as a Pagan there is no requirement for me to feel ashamed of my sexuality or to hide that aspect of myself behind all kinds of barriers.

i also believe that dress and makeup isnt a factor in the defintion of "flirt". mostly because flirt is an action. a physical/verbal action towards another. how a person dresses or the makeup they may or may not wear doesnt matter. anyone who believes the makeup or the clothes a person wears has an attribute to how they flirt is a fool. flirting is all about ones personality and sexual intentions towards another. clothes and makeup doesnt matter.

cassie wrote:

Should I stop wearing make up which might emphasize my sexual attractiveness? Should I dress down and dowdy in fear or arousing others? No? Why then should I adjust my behavior because other people may interpret it in the wrong way?

Cassie my dear, i highly doubt you need makeup nor dressy clothes to emphasize your attractiveness. Wink

cassie wrote:

It is my responsibility not to knowingly or deliberately lead people to expect something they are not going to get and to that purpose i am quite capable of telling people in plain and simple English, where my boundaries are. But I think that most of the people who know me would be quite sad if I stopped being flirty, it is a part of who I am.

Lying, deceiving and misleading people is wrong. Expressing the fullness of your personality is not.

agreed! Cheers/Slainte

of course, i like you more on an intelligent level so if ye try to flirt with me, i will just have to be a snatch tease back to you! Laughing

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